Stoy Hall, CFP®, Host:
0:00Welcome. I am so excited about this because like I was saying, pre show you are the most licensed and probably responsible for the mental side of things. Then I’ve had on the money mindset before being a therapist, both in practice, but now on the financial side, which I’m sure a lot of people are going. What is there a difference? What’s going on here? Or is she crazy? Which you know, Hey, we all are right. We all are. I’m very excited to have this episode going. So why don’t you talk us through from the beginning of your journey and how you got to where you’re at now?

Ashley Quamme:
0:36

So I think my journey, I say, I think I started in high school. I was the. Dear Abby of my friend group and so I jokingly, but in a serious way, I say that I got smart and realized I needed to start getting paid for talking about relationships. So I decided to become a therapist. But, I knew I wanted to work in the therapy field really from college. But I had a fascination with the way the mind works. I had a fascination with why actually relationships work the way that they do. Why do some succeed? Why do some fail? So all of that really took me on a journey of really becoming a couples therapist in college. I met my now husband Clayton, and he is a CFP. Like you. And so his journey really took him through college. I remember the day he came out of the library. He was a library nerd. And because I loved him, I default was also a library nerd. But I remember the day he came out and he’s I want to be a financial planner. And I was like, what is that? And I don’t know what that is. And he explained it to me and I was like, that sounds amazing. And really from there understood that there was this overlap in the work that we would be doing, wanting him, wanting to work more on the financial side of things, myself wanting to do more of the relational side. And so we have always talked about, we’ve been together now 17. Ish years. So that’ll tell you about how old I am, but we’ve been together about 17 years now. And for 17 years, like we have always just talked in tandem about the work that we do and the overlap there. Fast forward. I have a private practice. I’ve had one for about 10 years now, a clinical practice and couples has been my bread and butter finances come up in And I found a little bit, maybe just a little bit, maybe just a little bit. And I found myself ill equipped with knowing how to help them and trying to lean on Clayton, bless his heart. What do I do? What do I tell them? His advice really being like, they need a financial planner on I like this. I feel like there’s more I feel like I can do more. Yes, that might be an answer, but I think I can do more. Pre COVID started looking into really just what I could do there and really came and stumbled upon financial therapy. In that way, I didn’t know that it was a thing until 5 years ago when I came upon it and so started just diving in. I went back to school which is really hard to do after. You’ve not been in school for a really long time uh, but went back to school, became certified as a financial certified financial therapist also received my financial behavior specialist designation. And so I’ve just kept. Trudging along, like in this space of, I want to serve couples. I want to serve couples who struggle with the relational side of, of money. I want to help them. And, as I’ve also now come to realize, I also want to help financial advisors on the relational side of doing client relationships. So really long story, but yeah. That is nice. That is my story. An in a long winded nutshell.

Stoy Hall, CFP®, Host:
4:08

I love it. And if no one caught it, you may or may not be from the south. I just, when you said bless his heart, I like, I

Ashley Quamme:
4:14

just, I’m absolutely, I’m a North Carolina girl. Yeah. So North Carolina girl, born and raised in the south. I can’t live anywhere else unless they have sweet tea. So

Stoy Hall, CFP®, Host:
4:27

When you get up north it sweet tea becomes tea. Just tea.

Ashley Quamme:
4:31

Yeah. I, my dad’s from Philadelphia he’s from up North so somewhat familiar, but can’t do. Yeah, no. It’s I need diabetes tea, is what I need. So I need diabetes in a glass. So that’s pretty much what I need. Yeah.

Stoy Hall, CFP®, Host:
4:50

So whatever, 17 years ago, you guys got your brains together and figured that there’s a lot of interlocking connections and integrations within our industry. Obviously within the last five years, probably is when it became, it’s become more prevalent and we all can see the shift. Going away from numbers and investments to more of the emotional and psychology side of money. Because really when you get down to it, if you don’t make the right decisions or aren’t in the right state of mind to make good decisions, you’re not going to stick to your plan. And that plan probably involves investments. So you’re not going to build any of your wealth from that perspective. If you can’t get the things right on the front end, what in your mind? Cause you, you talk to a lot more advisors, obviously I share tweets and you tweet all about it, but there is, there’s an integration, but there’s also a separation. My always question, and I’ve never asked you this is how the hell as a CFP, do I know when that divide happens? What triggers me to go, this is stepping further into a lane that is not mine as compared to no, this is definitely within my range of abilities.

Ashley Quamme:
5:57

So that’s dependent upon the advisor. Really? I call it like the, Oh, feeling I’ve got young kids. So I know you, I know we both have young kids, right? But it’s like the, Oh, feeling. And I don’t have a more scientifically better way of describing it other than that, intuitive kind of gut feeling where you feel like, Oh, this is uncomfortable. I think every advisor has a different threshold. So there are some really obvious signs if you are giving marital advice that is no in the same way it would be for me to talk about investments and like what stock options, like a client or a couple should be like, that’s no, like that is way outside of the scope of your practice. So I think there are some really obvious ones, but then there’s also just paying attention to your own internal, cues of what feels comfortable. There are going to be some advisors who are more comfortable coaching their clients from a behavior standpoint. And that’s totally fine if you have the training. to do that. And there are more and more trainings now coming out for advisors specifically on how to coach their clients. There are also more and more firms or advisors hiring folks like myself to come in to their firm and actually be that person who does the. Coaching or financial therapy but, knowing where your lane is from an ethical place, I think is really important when we look at serving our clients.

Stoy Hall, CFP®, Host:
7:33

Yeah, and I believe it’s our duty to understand that and to recognize that when you’re talking about the ethical side of things. Obviously because the trust factor that is put upon specifically my profession and yours, by the way if we do step over that line and mess things up, it can not only come crashing down on their lives, our lives, et cetera. Now that is not, I’m saying that because it’s true and it’s honest. But I’m also trying to say for everyone not to be so scared either it is in my opinion that every CFP Specifically every planner should have enough training now It’s part of the curriculum in the CFP nowadays, but it should be a part of what you do You should have experience you should have things that you can pull on to help guide them in the right direction It is very obvious in my experience when there is a line that you know I can’t do that. I can’t help you there. And you tell them that, and then you say, I can provide you with some who can do that and I will help you, but it’s a very easy. In my eyes, it is very easy to see that white and black. There is very little gray in my opinion with that. Now, I just wish there was more and there will be coming more advisors and planners picking up on that education and becoming better at it. And that’s, to the tune of what you want to do. So how are you doing that? How are you wanting to reach other planners and advisors and really educate them and. Involve them so that they can grow in this side of the aisle.

Ashley Quamme:
9:05

So my hope, my vision and the work that I’ve been doing is to really partner with them to be a team member. So the firms that I currently work with I view myself as just part of the team and we work together collaboratively on more of the human side or the relational aspect of client growth. What that looks like might be consulting on certain, client cases coming into actual client meetings and facilitating conversations that maybe the advisor is, doesn’t have the training or is just uncomfortable with how to navigate, particularly when you start getting into couple dynamics and they can be tricky believe it or not. And if an advisor is not really comfortable with that’s a wonderful place from a growth standpoint, from an ethical standpoint to just say, Hey, I’ve got this other person that can come in and lead the charge on this conversation to help you client come to. Maybe a resolution around this area. I think about maybe a state planning issues or spending differences. Like those are tricky places for advisors to insert themselves into because they can come with a whole lot of punch. And you have to navigate those pretty delicately to where you don’t end up. Putting yourself in a position where 1 of the partners is offended or 1 of the partners maybe feels like you’re not on their side. And if you don’t have specialized training and how to navigate those conversations, you could inadvertently end up doing more harm to the advisor client relationship. So myself. Bringing someone in like me who has that knowledge, expertise and experience can service your clients well in that way to where everyone wins. Everyone does. So consultation coaching, like that’s how I partner, with them apart from, also just training and education as

Stoy Hall, CFP®, Host:
11:11

well. So wait, this whole continuing your education thing, like that’s a, that’s something we all should be doing is what you’re saying.

Ashley Quamme:
11:19

Yes, maybe. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Lifelong learners, right? Like we’re in a helping industry. And because humans are constantly evolving and changing technologies, constantly evolving, and changing, we are lifelong learners. If you didn’t get into either the financial planning or mental health profession to with the idea that you would be a lifelong learner, I’m sorry to burst that bubble. But it isn’t there are fields that require you to be lifelong learners if you want to service your clients well.

Stoy Hall, CFP®, Host:
11:49

Absolutely, a hundred percent. And there’s one thing that I’ve learned to do because when we first work with clients, the specific couples, there’s one of them spender, one of them saver almost all the time, like some level of degrees, but there always is. And the budget, right? We are always, I always go through transactions with them and I love to probe questions and to see who and how they react. Usually it’s like a. Oh, yeah, that’s a you thing. But after we get through it and you can feel the tension, I do it on purpose because I really want to get people riled up is the wrong word, but I want to get them emotionally involved. And the reason for that is because in true things start to happen, but then I lay this bomb on him and go and say, so all those feelings you guys are feeling right now, why he spends all that or you don’t or et cetera, is. That’s my job for you to point that at me. Don’t point it at each other. Because that’s going to terminate and hurt your relationship. My job is to tell you bad things and good things. I’m the one that you should be blaming for now until we can get you to educated and understanding what’s going on. And from that perspective, immediately, they, you can see them just relax and let down. And then they tell some joke of, like, why did you spend 700 at Target? And it lightens the mood. That’s one thing I want planners to do is, you are that professional. You take on the brunt of that, specifically early on. Because it’ll build trust fast and it will take pressure off of their relationship. And ultimately, regardless of what you say or anyone says we do, we deal with money, but it’s really, we deal with relationships. That’s what we do.

Ashley Quamme:
13:27

What I love about what you just said, and it’s, how at least I practice maybe is looking at externalizing the problem and really positioning the couple to teaming up together to fight the problem instead of the problem coming between them. My grandfather watches a lot of Westerns, and so I feel like I’ve grown up watching Westerns and it’s a terrible metaphor. You can make fun of me for it. It’s totally fine. But. I will tell my couples like, look, I don’t want you guys out. And the dirt roads, like gunslinging towards each other, like we need to position you to, to where you guys are back to back and you’re like fighting the battle, like men in black style, right? Like where you’re like fighting the battle, like together, like back to back I don’t want you. Pointing at each other. So I love that. Like you externalize that and you take it on in that way. And I think if we can help our couples, to be able to view the quote unquote, maybe problem or issue financial issue in that way, it certainly becomes a heck of a lot easier to navigate and work through it. Cause

Stoy Hall, CFP®, Host:
14:38

let’s be real money. Is it a factor in every relationship? Every one of them. And every couple of fights about it at some point in time. Why, in your opinion, is money such a, I don’t want to use it, root of all evil? Why is money such a divide and something that is not comfortable to talk about?

Ashley Quamme:
15:00

I actually don’t think that it’s money that’s the issue. Money has meaning. And so when couples fight, like what I tell them, whether it’s about the dishes, whether it’s about the money, most of the time, so I’m not giving an absolute here, but most of the time it’s actually not about the dishes. It’s actually not about the money. It’s about the underlying issues that come with it. It’s about the meaning, the values, the emotion, the history, the attachments. That is what is actually. Coming out, if you think about it like an iceberg, what on the outside is arguing back and forth about who’s spending what, or, who’s not spending what, that’s what on the outside. But underneath that iceberg is huge underneath the waters. And that is actually what is, really coming to the surface, is all of that stuff just. Maybe not in the most authentic, transparent way so I think that we place blame on money as couples. We place blame on the money, but it’s really not actually about that. And until couples can start to look under the waters and see what that stuff is and understand it, recognize it. Accept it, navigate it, figure out a way to work through or heal from it, they’ll continue to just fight, about it.

Stoy Hall, CFP®, Host:
16:22

Yeah. And what I’ve learned and I always ask what’s your first money memory when you’re growing up? Did you like, what was money like in your household? Because I’ve rooted it back to some type of trauma in their childhood and it doesn’t have to be like a actual trauma, but a money trauma as well. And usually what happens is they have a negative money mindset and it ends up being like an abusive relationship with money internally to themselves. There they think about money, and it beats on them. It wears them down mentally. Every decision they make is rooted around. They’re that relationship with money and I speak about it a lot in a, in that term because it really is abusing them once you actually turn that to a positive perspective and you understand that like you’re in control of your life, like it’s you, your money is not the root of it, there is something else, then you can start to heal, you can start to move forward and that’s when you see success in and major growth and that’s on the individual level, that’s not even the couple. So when you’re a couple, you have that times two, right? Yeah. And you came from different households. My wife and I came from drastically different households, right? She came from your normal white middle class with, enough resources to do basically whatever, travel all the time. I came from my father not being around since the age of three with a single mom who worked at a bar 12 hours a day. At a time mainly raised by my grandfather who’s actually my step grandfather who watches Westerns all the time So I’m definitely on board with that and I grew up driving a truck and on the semi and in the summer so like my growth in childhood is drastically different from hers and we had many of Hard conversations about just that root of it, right? Like what is normal? What is not? And it took us a long time to come to grips of what we went through personally in order to then heal, our relationship at that point. So I just wanted to make everyone certain, like it is a couple’s thing, but you need to work on you specifically, because there was something in your childhood that is affecting you that you may not even know of because you’ve pushed it down and it has to deal with. Something triggering that.

Ashley Quamme:
18:30

Yeah. I think of it like this nice triangle with couples. There’s a, you, me, and we aspect to it. And so all three of those parts have to be healthy. And there is one part though that won’t be healthy. The, we can’t be healthy if you know the two, you and me, parts aren’t. And so I think you’re right. You have to focus on. You have to focus on yourself as an individual if you want the we part to be well,

Stoy Hall, CFP®, Host:
19:04

and there’s no quick fix, right? This isn’t something you can do overnight,

Ashley Quamme:
19:07

right? So I did not get the magic wand in graduate school. I. Was absent that day. I was hung over that day. I don’t know. But I did not get the magic wand in graduate school. There may be some other clinicians out there who did some who are probably far better than myself. But no, I don’t think the quick fix wand exists, at least not that I have found and not that I received.

Stoy Hall, CFP®, Host:
19:34

There’s three things in life that I can do. And I can’t use guarantee much because compliance doesn’t like it, but I can guarantee there’s three factors in your life that are a lifelong journey that you need to stay on and grind through all the time that there’s no quick fix for. That is your mental health. That is your financial health, if you will. And that is your diet and your lifestyle, like those three things, so your physical, those three things are something you need to work on always. They’ll never just be fixed. It’ll never go away as long as you’re breathing on this earth. And that’s what I try to tell people is like, when we work with you from a financial perspective, we’re on a lifelong journey. Whether you fire me and go with someone else, I don’t really care, but like your life. Is going to be involved with growing your wealth forever. There is no end all be all. Ask the billionaires and trillionaires and millionaires and people who have negative net worth. They’re always grinding and trying to figure out things to make better for whatever they’re. Cause or issues are and so you just can’t stop doing that same thing with your physical health I used to play d1 football My right knee is now stiff and hurting for some reason the last couple weeks You have to work on things because things break down and then obviously you can attest to the mental side as well, and if you don’t have those three things working for you and the right direction together, just like the triangle, then where are you going? What is happening to you right now?

Ashley Quamme:
20:58

I think it’s important to note, because some people get really frustrated with things not being just like a one time okay, I did this. And then, this should sustain me from now until forever. I think it’s important to note. And what I tell folks is that. It can’t just be a one time, fix it and then done because we live in a system where we are influenced by everything around us and within us. And we are constantly changing. Things are constantly changing. Think of it like a thermostat, like you’re, it has to work to, constantly recalibrate like the air temperature to maintain, whatever status quo is right in my house. I wish that it was like 71, but sometimes it’s not but okay.

Stoy Hall, CFP®, Host:
21:47

My wife and I, she’s always cold. We argue about this all the time. We’re not arguing. It’s just we make fun of it. Are you the cold one too?

Ashley Quamme:
21:53

I am

Stoy Hall, CFP®, Host:
21:54

the cold one. Okay. R says set at 68 just for,

Ashley Quamme:
21:57

everyone listening. Yeah. Yeah. I won’t tell it. Yeah. So we got a smart thermometer, smart thermostat, and I may or may not have attached it to my phone so that it does whatever I want it to. And not my head. I may or may not have done that intentionally. But like we as individuals and like our relationship, like we are constantly like having to and needing to work to recalibrate if we’re wanting to maintain, whether certain lifestyles, certain weight, a certain level of financial marital individual health.

Stoy Hall, CFP®, Host:
22:38

So what we’re talking about though, a lot is having people in your court and on your side, not necessarily on your side, but in. On your team we’ll go back to the team factor, right? Whether that’s, you on the mental side, me on the financial side, we’re all working in unison for you to become one, a better person, a healthier person. And overall, what that does is it builds your wealth. And I talk about this almost literally every episode I ever do because it’s very important for me and to me. Wealth does not equal money does not equal happiness, but wealth equals happiness. Wealth equals happiness and happiness is being able to give back to others, being able to just live with yourself, traveling and doing all those things. That is wealth and I always go back to the story when we went to Tanzania as a football team and you know when we first landed all the women were sweeping mud floors, like mud floors in their mud huts and it like. baffled me because it didn’t make any sense. Like it’s mud when you just leave it. But that was their home. They were taking care of it and they were the happiest people that I’ve ever met in my life. They are way more wealthy than we are as Americans. And we have. I don’t know a million times more resources than them per person. And so I always want everyone to really recognize that. And if you can recognize that as a person, I believe then it starts to transition what you’re thinking about and who you are in finding your passion and what you’re about, right? Because it’s less now about the dollar. I’m not going to work to get a dollar. I’m not doing this because of a dollar. I’m doing this because I want to because I want to be around those people. I want to give back And so it’s very important to have that team because that team helps you and drive you forward in that how does someone one not necessarily get a hold of you But how does someone bridge this gap because this happens all the time. Oh, you’re seeing the therapist Oh, like, how do we break that now? I know a lot of society has been helping, but what would you say to someone who’s listening to this or just Googles it or sees you on Twitter? Like, how do they bridge that gap to taking that step to come speak with somebody?

Ashley Quamme:
24:44

I think that the pain has to be greater. The pain of change has to be greater than the pain of staying the same. And that’s different for everyone. Can you say that again? Yeah. The pain of change has, or I’m sorry, the pain of staying the same has to be greater than the pain of change. Yeah, people don’t want to change. We’re not really wired to do to change. We’re really just wired to maintain and do the status quo and default, do the same thing right over and over. But I think you and I both know that whether that’s from a physical health standpoint, a mental health or a financial health, like sometimes staying the same can be more painful The pain of actually changing. So I’ve started weightlifting recently and I used to love it. I used to love it. And it is frigging painful. It is frigging I am sore. My lats are on fire right now as we are speaking, because I was lifting earlier this morning, like I’m sore and that is painful. However, it’s not as painful as. The shame and guilt that I have personally been experiencing when I look in the mirror or am winded at cheerleading practice, because, spotting these girls doing their tumbling passes requires actually more effort than what you realize. When it comes to improving our financial health, our mental health, we have to come to a place where staying the same is actually more painful than the steps to change. So when you are ready to make and take those steps, it becomes easier than to start to consider, oh, here are the team members that could help me do that. Maybe it’s Ashley, maybe it’s Stoy, maybe it’s somebody else, but here are the possibilities for doing that. I think through COVID from just a more, global standpoint, some of that stigma has around mental health and wellbeing has started to shift. And that has been immensely helpful. I will say that, excuse me, I see more and more actually younger couples or younger folks coming in really from a proactive place. Not waiting the 5 to 7 years when, statistically speaking, that’s when, crap hits the fan and divorce rates, are likely, but they’re taking a more proactive stance around. We want to be better, or I want to get married. We want to get married. However, we realize that we both carry some baggage and we don’t want to bring that into our marriage. There are more and more folks and couples that are doing that. And that’s a sign to me that things are shifting and changing, but I think it also shifts. With other allied professions like financial planners, and this is where I’m a huge advocate and financial planners talking about mental health with their clients, making necessary referrals. Because I think if we start to normalize it in other professions, it really helps to destigmatize, folks seeking out help or seeking out

Stoy Hall, CFP®, Host:
27:59

treatment. I’m doing some data points lately on clients and prospective clients. That if they are seeing a mental health professional, chiropractor or anything that’s building of that and how that correlates to their wealth journey. I don’t have obviously numbers right now because it’s still in, whole research form, but I have at least been able to say positively that those that are getting help both mentally, physically or whatever it is and are able to achieve that. Are hiring us at a higher clip and are becoming more successful on their wealth journey, whatever that means to them, by the way, but more successful in their wealth journey than those that are not. And that to me just puts it all in more perspective of it’s all correlated. There is no hard wire. Or a hard line of money, mental and physical, it is all one and the same. And that’s why I have a series called money mindset, because the emotional side of who you are dictates everything else. And money is involved with that. There’s no way around getting money involved because we live in a society that literally everything we do deals with money. So if you don’t attack that and really hone in on yourself, the odds of you being successful are. Heavier on you than if you do have a team and you do start to recognize those things. So a little fun data thing. I hope, I don’t know when that’ll ever be done, but I’m going to start asking others and see if we can really get some data behind it because so far it’s it’s been very

Ashley Quamme:
29:33

enlightening. Yeah, you’ll have to keep me posted on the findings because I also find that very fascinating.

Stoy Hall, CFP®, Host:
29:41

I, I, and it’s just Oh, all I’m gonna start asking planners. I’m gonna do a different one for just planners and ask them, do you have a therapist? How successful is your practice? And just see just simple, two simple questions. Two simple

Ashley Quamme:
29:54

questions, two simple questions. That’s all. Yeah.

Stoy Hall, CFP®, Host:
29:59

What else do you want to leave everyone with in regards to our conversation today?

Ashley Quamme:
30:05

The only other thing that I would just say, and this kind of goes along the lines of what we were just talking about, is that it is okay. To reach out to a financial therapist, a couple’s therapist, a financial planner, you can reach out proactively. Something doesn’t have to be wrong. bEcause I think that’s a misconception that something has to be wrong in order to go and work on it. And that’s not true. That’s not true. So especially like in within the therapy, realm, you can be proactive and learn, tips that will help you to maybe flourish or, thrive that, that is okay. Or to just learn. Hey, cause that’s cool. Like to just, learn so I’m a big, I tried to like empower people in that way. Like you don’t have to wait for something to be wrong in order to take action. You can get ahead of things. We’re not really wired that way because it requires us to come off of autopilot um, and be intentional. And sometimes living intentionally can be really difficult. But. For anyone who maybe has this idea that I can only go to therapy if something is wrong or I can at least seek out like financial therapy if something is wrong, I’m here to dispel that, that is not actually true.

Stoy Hall, CFP®, Host:
31:28

See, so if you’re that person right now, just be proactive. By the way, being proactive on your health too is a good thing too. So let’s just get ahead of all of it before it snowballs and crushes us, please. Yes. That’d be great. Are you currently taking new clients on or are you full? Can people reach out now? Yes.

Ashley Quamme:
31:47

Yeah. So I have a group practice. It’s called the wealthy marriage. And actually I really liked your idea around like wealth because With my practice, we talk about building and crafting your wealthy marriage vision. And that is not just about the numbers. It’s about all of the eight dimensions of wellbeing. So your physical health, your emotional health, your spiritual health, your financial health, right? My practice, the wealthy marriage, it is a group practice. We have an accredited financial counselor Dr. Brittany Bramlett, who does more of like the budgeting debt management, the in really in the numbers places of it. Myself, I do the more therapeutic aspect of it, communication. And then I have another clinical intern right now. He’ll be graduating and staying on in the practice who. Really focuses more on women actually, and then building their own a greater sense of wellbeing, financial wellbeing. So yes, we are, all of us are accepting clients right now. All three of us, and you can reach us at the wealthy marriage. com so www. thewealthymarriage. com or you can shoot me an email. Hello at the wealthy marriage. com. Those are all wonderful places to find us, find me and get in touch.

Stoy Hall, CFP®, Host:
33:01

Absolutely. And we’ll have all that stuff down in the description as well on our YouTube and Spotify and all those things that I always have to do for marketing. But also you can also follow us on Twitter. If you want to follow us on Twitter, we like to chat and share quite a few things that might be against the norm with people think, but it is who we are and it’s just everything you listen to. Within this episode too. So I appreciate you a lot, and I would like to tell you to stay warm, but you’re in the South. You don’t have to worry about 30 degrees next week.

Ashley Quamme:
33:28

It is cold. We are sitting at 50 some degrees right now. I’m sorry. Actually it’s 74. I lied. It was 50 some this morning. It’s cold. Yes. Yeah.

Stoy Hall, CFP®, Host:
33:38

Just call it.

Ashley Quamme:
33:53

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